Does the word “vagina” make you feel uncomfortable? Does it feel weirder to say than “penis”? Should the word be banned in the State House of Representatives? What other word should representatives use when discussing female reproductive issues? Are there any negative connotations associated with the word? Why?
A Day in the Life 
This post, “15 Crazy Things About Vagina”, was just posted to reddit and it’s got some interesting controversy around it which made me think of this post so I thought I’d come back and share it. You can read about the controversy here: http://www.owningpink.com/blogs/owning-pink/sperm-trumps-vagina-wtf and that also has a link to the 15 Crazy Things article in question.
This conversation brought up some very interesting points (and it felt wrong having it end with a personal attack on someone by an anonymous commentator). Well one thing I believe everyone agreed on in this discussion was- It was inappropriate for Ms. Brown to have made the comment(as a whole) that she did, in the way that she did. Kyla, I feel your post is misleading, it seems to be trying to display only a limited section of information to get people to believe a half truth. It did generate a lot of discussion though, and it is always good to get people talking about issues that get swept under the rug sometimes.
Her usage of ‘No means no’ is more troubling to me than the use of the anatomically correct word. To me it seems to imply that the ‘speaker’ is attempting to rape her and she is trying to fend him off. In the end do I believe that this kind of behavior should be met by consequences? Yes. Has their been worst things done which was met by softer consequences? Possibly. It really didn’t matter if she used the word ‘vagina’ or ‘cunt’ or ‘Female reproductive organs’ it was mostly what she said as a whole that warranted her the ban (temporary).
Seems I read the time codes wrong, disregard the first sentence.
Thanks for your comment Nafis! It wasn’t my intention to be misleading. A friend posted the image on Facebook, and it brought up a lot of questions in my mind – most of which were not about the exact incident, rather the idea of saying “vagina”.
Could you explain a little more what you mean in the middle? (“To me it seems to imply that the “speaker” is attempting to rape her and she is trying to fend him off.”) Does this means that you think a reply from Ms. Brown was necessary but she chose an incorrect reply? Should she have just stayed quiet? Should it have been addressed outside of the House?
she wasn’t being raped though 😛 definitely an incorrect reply, but not to address it outside of the House. Issues should not leave the House, it is unprofessional. She should’ve addressed it properly while she had the chance.
Hey Kyla,
Brown’s use of the phrase ‘No means no’ is an implication, maybe even an accusation, towards the House Speaker. I hope this article clears up what I am referring to.
http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/06/michigan-gop-brown-vagina-rape.php
Thanks for the clarification Nafis. And I have read some articles that liken new regulations in the States to rape – making decisions about a woman’s body without her consent. When representatives (often men) suggest laws that would forfeit a woman’s right, what is the best course of action? Being nice and “politically correct” hasn’t worked yet.
Hi Kyla,
I understand your frustration at how being ‘nice and politically correct’ is not being as effective as you would like; but I must draw to your attention that the representatives, though mostly men, are the representatives for the Canadian people, who had chosen on their free will to put them there (directly or indirectly). Unfortunately this system doesn’t allow for everyone to have their way; the majority makes the call, and you can protest it, but in the end you must abide by it. You have the right to your belief, but there is no alternative to being courteous and respectful.
*of course referring to Canada not the U.S. in this context
if it doesn’t work by being nice and politically correct what makes you think being rude and impolitically correct would work better?
Hey Ben – I actually didn’t say what I think. I was asking Nafis if he had suggestions on what might work. If you have anything constructive to add to the discussion based on facts and concrete knowledge then that would be wonderful.
how is that not concrete or based off knowledge? you said yourself being politically correct doesn’t work..so ur suggesting the only other course of action which is to use things out of context to get your point across. I’m merely pointing out my opinion that that is even worse than being politically correct and within context . completely factual, concrete, and constructive comment. Just cuz you don’t like what i’m saying doesn’t mean it isn’t based off concrete knowledge. ..
Now, as far as her argument is concerned. She is absolutely correct. The life of a mother, is far more important than the life of an unborn fetus. I agree, that it should be up to a mother to make her constitutional choice to have an abortion. Her final comment however, was unnecessary. It was irrelevant, and not appropriate for a house of reps. She made a strong point, but she went too far with her final comment. It is not the fact that “vagina” used in context makes people feel uncomfortable. It is how she used the word that was inappropriate. I believe that the out roar of women trying to fight the ban of Lisa Brown, are just looking for an excuse to have a feminism battle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGS9vo1avVg
I know I’m a little late to the vagina party (I think that should be a euphemism for lesbian sex if it isn’t already…), but in the interest of being thorough, I’ll try to answer each of the questions you asked in the post.
The word vagina does not make me personally feel uncomfortable any more than the word penis does. It’s what surrounds those words that can make me uncomfortable; for instance, my classmates and I got into a bizarre and rambling conversation about the ballistic corkscrew penises of male ducks once but that was just hilarious, not uncomfortable, whereas someone coming up to me and saying something specific about the current state of their own penis or vagina would make me very uncomfortable indeed regardless of whether they actually said penis or vagina.
I don’t think that the word should be banned in the State House of Representatives, because “disruptive” use of any word is already covered by other rules. Vagina and penis are the accepted medical terms for their respective organs, and are even used in court documents (see also: http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/26/showbiz/john-travolta-lawsuit/index.html John Travolta allegedly “forc[ed] his naked person and erect penis against plaintiff’s person” according to court documents) so there’s no reason they shouldn’t be equally acceptable in a house of representatives when the situation allows.
However, it isn’t clear that the woman in question was even actually banned for using the word vagina. Keep in mind, Brown wasn’t the only Representative who received an indefinite ban for speaking in that particular debate, Rep. Byrum was as well; neither of them were actually told why they were receiving their bans and all they really had in common was that they were both against the legislation, so they’ve been trying to figure out why they were banned. Byrum spoke out of turn after trying and failing to be recognized to speak, so she figures that’s why she was banned. But on trying to figure out why she was banned, all Brown could come up with was that she’d mentioned her religious beliefs (Judaism), and her scathing closing remark “I’m flattered that you’re all so interested in my vagina, but no means no” (see Jezebel’s article). BUT, the House GOP spokesman says that Brown was banned not for saying vagina (or any insinuations around the term), but for comparing the legislation to rape by invoking the statement “no means no”. Which, as the Mary Sue points out (see: http://www.themarysue.com/michigan-house-abortion-bill-lisa-brown-barb-byrum/ ), is still kind of a disturbing reason to silence a woman when taken on its own (telling someone “You are not allowed to speak because you said that ‘no means no'” has some pretty lousy implications).
But there you have it, straight from the horse’s mouth (more or less): she wasn’t actually banned for daring to say vagina because really, houses of reps and courts alike are generally fine with appropriate use of medically accurate terminology.
The more I think about why it makes people so uncomfortable to say the word vagina, in any setting, though specifically in this case, is because vaginas are something that give women power, namely the power to create life. Any time women and power are equated people are bound to become uncomfortable. To me this can also explain why it seems that people, especially younger generations, are much more comfortable using the word penis or other synonyms for the word in casual conversation.
There has been a long-standing history of words used to describe female genitalia being deemed offensive. For instance, the word “cunt”. Cunt was once viewed as a term of respect, being an honorific term for a female ruler of a country. The word vagina on the other hand, which has become the proper medical term for female genitalia (even though it is only one part of the larger reproductive organ), comes from the Latin meaning “sheath of the sword”. This clearly paints an image, at least in my mind, that the vagina is merely the case that holds something powerful and has no power in itself. Hence, the word cunt, which actually holds more power for womym, has been declared vulgar and is so heavily tabooed, whereas the “weaker” word vagina is more socially acceptable. Womym must reclaim these words that over time have become “offensive” in order to regain their power.
Also, if you are comfortable legislating female reproductive issues, you should be comfortable using the words vulva, vagina, etc. because they are integral components for women’s reproductive health. There shouldn’t have to be other words used—perhaps there just needs to be different people making the legislation.
Thanks for this post Kyla! It really made me realize the true power that words have on people.
opps, mean’t to write womyn near the end there. The spellcheck clearly didn’t like my alternate spelling.
i really don’t think there is a higher taboo on the word penis, more so than vagina. They are both regarded as offensive to use in casual conversation as well as in court and house of reps. Again, I do not believe this issue has anything to do with feminist disempowerment. It has nothing to do with taking power away from women. I could understand if we were allowed to openly say penis in a different way but we are not. It’s no different. There’s a taboo on these words for a reason, and it should be kept that way.
Thank you so much for your insights Heather – I didn’t know the background behind the words cunt and vagina. It’s really interesting to see the evolution of language and how it can affect a group of people!
I especially like your comment that people in legislative roles should be able to discuss these issues without skirting around certain words. Yes, as Ben mentioned, there is a way to discuss reproduction without saying vagina or any other “uncomfortable” word, by why is that even necessary?
Why is it even necessary to say vagina when speaking about abortion rights? Why is it necessary to ever say penis or vagina in casual conversation or any other conversation that isn’t directly related to those areas? If you’re talking about health, fine. If you’re just being crude and using inappropriate language (as deemed by society), whats the point?
Hey Kyla! Here are my answers/opinion.
Does the word “vagina” make you feel uncomfortable? It can be uncomfortable depending on the audience and context. I find that it comes up very frequently in my research and many of classes which has essentially normalized the term for me.
Does it feel weirder to say than “penis”? I think they are about on par for me.. I wouldn’t go out of my way to say either, but I wouldn’t avoid it either.
Should the word be banned in the State House of Representatives? The word should not be banned, just limited to the appropriate context and conversation.
What other word should representatives use when discussing female reproductive issues? They should use the correct term dependant on which female reproductive issue is being discussed. Vagina is correct in many cases, so would cervix, vulva, uterus, etc.
Are there any negative connotations associated with the word? MANY Why? Because it is a part of a reproductive system, particularly in the USA with abstinence-only education, this word is made taboo, discussions about sex and sex organs are denormalized, which also decreases the instances of using protection and feeling safe about discussing options when it comes to sex and sexual health. If words related to sex are taboo, then talking about sex is taboo, this cycle essentially keeps people (particularly youth) in a trap where they can’t ask for information about sex and are often uninformed about sexual health, protection, and their option (which are decreasing every day in the USA)..
Thanks for the comment Steph – I’m glad that you are comfortable using the correct words for body types! For me it has only been during my university career that I have become comfortable with words like vagina or penis – may it can be attributed to me growing into an adult woman!
I LOVE the comment “discussions about sex and sex organs are denormalized”. This is so crucial to the discussion! I asked Ben earlier if he thought that taboo words were inherent or socially constructed but didn’t get a real answer. The point that you brought up (and Heather C. too!) really demonstrated how society has made this the norm.
I think its inherently wrong to talk about your private parts in public…personally. I talk about my private parts like it doesn’t matter with my friends, but I would never ever talk to an adult or someone of authority about my balls. It just isn’t polite. It’s not societal, it’s just manners.
by the way i literally just word counted and my responses are all under 200 words so…
I think it’s more an issue with her being cheeky towards someone holding a higher position in what is a formal, more traditional than most, setting. It shouldn’t be as much about the words she used as the way she said them and ordered them. That’s just how I read into it though.
The House also claims the ban was for her use of “no means no” which likens the law to rape.
On another note, Vagina definitely retains shock value in today’s society. But in my opinion the way to bring change and eliminate its shock is not through gathering in public places and yelling “VA-GIN-A! VA-GIN-A!” as people did the next day in front of the Statehouse’s steps. A better way would be using soft power, such as the media. Soft power is what I believe has reduced penis’s shock value. But it all depends on who you say it in front of. People from previous generations like my grandparents will likely always dance around the words penis and vagina.
Thanks for the comment Brett! Your mention of soft power reminds me of an article I read about a lot of new TV shows using the word vagina. With shows like 2 Broke Girls, Don’t Trust the B in Apartment 23 and Girls, vagina is being used way more on TV and in the media. Do you think that using the word in this sense is the way to go towards making it “just a word” instead of taboo?
No matter how reduced the shock value, it will never be appropriate to use the words vagina or penis not in relation to the topic. If it’s relevant, by all means. But she was not relevant or appropriate, and people’s reaction to it is even worse (I didn’t know the next day they were yelling vagina on the front steps- that’s just foolish). I agree with Brett, the issue has been misguided, it’s really more about what she said, then the word she used. Like I said, if any man tried to say what she said in a place like that they would be fired, and likely charged with harassment/sexual assault charges…and we wouldn’t be debating about it, the issue would still be a feminist one, because the guy probably would just get the few day ban like she did and women everywhere would be apphauled that he didn’t get more punishment. “he made a pass at the speaker and he only gets 3 days?” i know for a fact if the situation was different so would the argument. It will never be appropriate to mention private parts in a courtroom, house of reps, city hall, etc etc.
Thank-you for posting this Kyla!
Obviously very thought provoking, and I think it’s important to note that a discussion does not have to end with a winner – especially not on a blog ahah… Just the fact that we’re talking about it is fantastic, so thank you!
Putting aside opinions about abortion and the actual situation in Michigan, I think it is disappointing how uncomfortable the simple and correct anatomical terms for those organs can be. Their being such “awkward” subjects makes discussing things related to them difficult for people, which becomes a problem when discussing them can be integral to ones ability to make informed/sound decisions about their health and lives in general.
If you know me as well as I think you do, you know I have no problem with those words and I think it will be for the best for society to move in that direction. The things that are awkward for us to discuss create problems in society because we don’t have the best mechanisms for dealing with them… For instance, death is always an incredibly awkward subject because it’s difficult to discuss, explain or cope with.
Just a thought 🙂
Keep on writing, I love it!
Okay put it in this perspective. wHat if I was in the house of Commons and said, “I bet Mr Speaker that you are very interested in my penis, but i say no!”……i’m pretty sure women everywhere would be outraged especially if the speaker was a woman…
Abortions among teenagers aged 15 to 19 had increased from 14 per 1000 teenage women in 1974 to 22 per 1000 by 1997. For ages 18–19 only, the numbers increased from 17 to 33 per 1000 women during the same period.
Abortion accounted for slightly more than half (50.3%) of pregnancy outcomes among Canadian teenagers in 1997, but as with the pregnancy rate there are strong regional differences.
Hi Kyla! I think it would be helpful if you provided more information about the actual incident in Michigan. I do not know what happened, so it is hard for me to make an informed and balanced comment.
I share some, but not all of Ben’s sentiments. To be honest I feel equally awkward about the words penis and vagina, and I think that they shouldn’t be used in professional contexts when they are not necessary. Of course, this is situational, and health care professionals would be one example of this.
In a house of representatives situation, I think there are ways around using these words, even when talking about things like abortions ie. reproductive or sexual organs and body parts, sexual health, etc. Like I said, I do not know what the context was in the Michigan example that you alluded to. It is possible that it was used in a totally relevant and appropriate manner. I feel, however, that it may have just been used to incite a reaction from people – the shock and discomfort that people do feel when saying ‘penis’ and ‘vagina’.
Now, it is not because there is necessarily a negative connotation to these words that I feel this way. It’s just that I think that there can be more appropriate ways of talking about reproductive issues in a formal setting like that. These are words that some people have genuine discomfort using in a public setting, and that should be considered.
That being said, I do not think it warrants being fired or suspended. Let’s get real, a lot worse things have been said in question period.
I agree with Jeanette. It was used in this context however “”Mr Speaker, I’m flattered that you’re all so interested in my vagina, but ‘no’ means ‘no,'” she said. and therefore was to incite a reaction and therefore inappropriate. Regardless of freedom of speech, you gotta pick the right forum…
Hey Jeannette! Here is Lisa Brown’s account of what happened and a video: http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/21/opinion/brown-kicked-out-for-saying-vagina/index.html
I agree that there are ways to get around saying vagina. But I don’t understand why we would need to – it is the anatomically correct word for a body part. If she had said “cunt” or “pussy” then this would be a much more heated topic.
And people are definitely uncomfortable saying penis or vagina! But I would love to hear more opinions on why that is.
Just to clarify as well… it’s not that I feel awkward about saying vagina or penis, I just meant that I have the same feeling about both words. I do feel comfortable using them in certain situations, but I don’t feel the need to use them lightly and would feel slightly awkward using them in them this way. This is because they refer to a private body part that we are taught since childhood should be treated a certain way. As children, we are told not to treat these body parts lightly, show them to other people, etc. This obviously changes with maturity, and I absolutely believe in women’s choice and freedoms, but I also believe that reproductive health remains a highly sensitive and serious topic, and we should not compromise this by using ‘vagina’ and ‘penis’ in ways that discredit this. It is not because there is a taboo about these body parts, or they should not be embraced and appreciated.
After looking at the page you sent me to, I feel that Lisa Brown was wrong in what she said. She is making a sexual reference between herself and the speaker. She is being cheeky and not literal, but her comment refers to the speaker being interested in her sexually. It was NOT the word ‘vagina’ that she did wrong, it was the entire comment.
“Mike Callton told the press that what [Brown] had said was so vile, so disgusting, that he could never bear to mention it in front of women or “mixed company”. I do not believe that the word vagina is a vile word, but I think her entire comment was totally inappropriate. I totally stand with Lisa Brown on the issues, but I don’t support this comment and I find that it is offensive.
Yes, vagina is the correct term. But Lisa was not using it to describe anatomy.
Thanks for discussing why the word makes people uncomfortable Jeannette! We are definitely brought up thinking that vagina and penis are bad words – it is an interesting social norm.
And yes, I do agree with you that the comment was inappropriate – but not grounds for taking away her right to speak.
no offense guys but in this case this is completely inappropriate. “Mr Speaker, I’m flattered that you’re all so interested in my vagina, but ‘no’ means ‘no,'” she said. Irrelevant, suggestive, and offensive. She deserved the ban and even deserves to be fired for saying that,
when discussing sex organs, yes it may be appropriate to use the anatomical term. In speakin about abortion, there is really no need to discuss vaginas or penises. The issue is n’t about penises and vaginas. It is about whether the value of a babys life is worth the teenage pregnancy issues and trauma the baby will likely face. There’s no real need to speak of a vagina…
First, I would just like to point out your assumption that any woman seeking an abortion is a teenager. This is a huge generalization.
Second, you cannot discuss abortion without discussing the woman. The issue is not just about a potential life, it is about the woman.
Should we not talk about a uterus either? Or sperm and eggs? Or ovaries? Or any body part that makes us feel uncomfortable?
And yes, Lisa Brown was being cheeky in her comment – but what she said does not incite hate or violence, and she has the freedom of speech to say it.
First of all, if you look at Stats Canada the majority of females seeking abortions are teenagers,its not a generalization. Secondly, you don’t need to use the word vagina in order to get your point across about abortion. Yes it is about the woman, but it is unnecessary to go into great detail about sex processes especially when it is irrelevant and suggestive. We don’t need to talk about uterus or eggs either. None of which make anyone uncomfortable, but don’t belong in a professional setting.
If she had used vagina in a respectful way, then yes it would have been appropriate. It is well established that speaking about male or female genatalia in public is rude….its just common sense
what was the context of what the woman was saying? I guarantee it was not necessary to bring up a womans private parts.
okay so the issue is in regard to discussing abortion. There’s also no real need to discuss vaginas when speaking about a human life is there? I myself believe in people making free choices, when sharing my opinion about abortion at no time do i need to mention a vagina. Speaking about genitals is just rude…it is unnecessary to talk about it unless you are in a sexual education class. We don’t talk about penises when we talk about abortion either…we talk about getting pregnant. I don’t see any reason why someone would have to use the word…in any situation really.
Ben, I have to ask, do you think that maybe there’s an inherent problem with the taboo that you just laid out – that speaking about genitals “is just rude.”
Abortion, especially in the States, is an issue that’s largely spoken about by males. The anatomy behind it, but even more so the reality of abortion, rape, and contraception, are spoken of in a similar light – by males who still are dictated by the taboos.
Lisa Brown was being cheeky when she made the comment, there’s no doubt about it. However, when issues are being passed over by a significant proportion of the population, and one that directly impacted by these issues, shouldn’t there be some clout in the fact that she raised the issue? All words referring to genitalia are still taboo (and using the latin word for it doesn’t dissolve that) and that these issues are spoken of in such an ‘appropriate’ and bureaucratic right that they are completely dehumanized and boxed off from the reality and gravity of the situation.
I don’t see a problem with saying talking about genitals is rude. It is. I don’t know how you were raised but talking about my penis in public was never tolerated. There’s no need to ever say vagina when talking about abortion, and that is proven by her not using it correctly. If she had used it in relevance, it would’ve been alright. The anatomy is not necessary to talk about, we know how you get pregnant, we know how you get an abortion. the issue doesn’t have to do with body parts, it has to do with life choices. I don’t think this issue is being passed over by anyone, especially when it is being discussed in every media forum and in every states house of reps. The fact is, she was rude and deserved the ban. You wanna talk about dehumanizing someone? How about when you suggest someone is interested in your vagina…
Also, the reaction of the public makes it all the worse. Screaming vagina on the front steps will get noone anywhere..
Lindsay: Thanks for your post. You made a lot of good points, especially that it mostly men talking about “taboo” topics that affect women.
Ben: I want to bring you back to my original question – why is the word vagina (or other reproductive organs) taboo in our society? You mention that it was the way you were raised. So is this a societal norm that has been developed over time, or is it inherently wrong?
the word vagina is offensive and taboo in high societal situations because it is a private part on your body. It’s not something to be talked about. Maybe if we were all nudists it would be okay. But the fact is, mentioning your private parts isn’t respectful behaviour and everyone knows that…
I think Kyla is more asking, what makes it disrespectful? It’s “private” and it’s something hidden by our clothing and is covered just as much as something like a foot – and I’m sure you know way more people who are disgusted, repulsed, or even feel “disrespected” way more by someone’s foot than their penis and/or vagina.
i can’t honestly say i know any one who is offended by feet…
they may be gross but i think its a different circumstance
saying the word vagina in any professional setting or in a house of representatives would obviously be seen as unprofessional and you would likely be fired or suspended from your job….I don’t think any employer would respect someone saying vagina in the workplace. There’s no need for it? Regardless of how it makes ppl feel. Does saying penis make YOU feel comfortable? I certainly don’t feel awkward about penises but i definitely wouldn’t say it in a house of representatives…thats just stupid. You should get fired if you say obscene or irrelevant things during professional proceedings…if you do you deserve to be fired..
1. Vagina is the correct anatomical term for the body part.
2. They were discussing an anti-choice and anti-abortion bill. What should the Lisa Brown have said instead of vagina?
3. When discussing male reproductive issues, I would ABSOLUTELY say penis. Because it is the correct anatomical term.
I fully agree Kyla.
Vagina. It’s a body part. We are not living in the Victorian era. Accept the vaginas. (And the penises too).
Ben, just for the sake of being able to draft a response, is there any way to voice your comments/opinion in one concise comment around 200 words? Just so we can get to the root of what you’re actually saying?
Thanks
uhm. nope. sorry. you’ll just have to deal with it and read it. All valid points. For the sake of not sounding like an idiot, please keep your responses related to the actual topic and not about the length of responses. I couldn’t care less if my comments are too long for you.
Thanks. I appreciate your effort.
by the way i literally just word counted and my responses are all under 200 words so
I’ve read all your responses, but many of them are on different topics and different aspects of the larger problem at hand. As these blogs are for our classes, one response to essentially summarize your main argument(s) would be appreciated. However I understand if you are unwilling or uninterested in doing this.
in all fairness it is an open forum and my comments can be as long as i want them to be. you will have to pick and choose what you want to respond to, but i think my opinion has been pretty clearly stated and doesn’t involve much more explaining. Regardless of whether it is for class, it doesn’t matter how long or how many posts there are, that is the whole point of it. pretty rude.
It’s not even the length of the comments that’s the real issue with his commenting. It’s sheer volume. Of 45 comments (46 counting this one) he has 23 comments. I wonder why he feels such a need to dominate the conversation? What makes his opinion so much more correct than everyone else’s? Why is his right to speak so much more valuable than everybody else’s?
It reeks of self-centeredness and entitlement.